Cofty, the OT is just as "moral" as the 21st century. The difference is they were ignorant we are not.
(Edited to add I am off to do yard work.)
Hold Me-Thrill Me
JoinedPosts by Hold Me-Thrill Me
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94
Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option
by cofty init's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.
i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.
it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
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94
Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option
by cofty init's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.
i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.
it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
Cofty: I think you are allowing that the bible cannot be trusted when it tells us what OT god said and did.
No, I'm saying that the Bible has suffered from the faulty standard set by fundamentalist Christians who came to believe everything written in the Bible is to be taken literally. This was not the way it was understood by Jews in the past.
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Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option
by cofty init's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.
i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.
it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
Cofty, if you were addressing fundamentalist Christians only perhaps you should have pointed that out if you did I apologize for missing it. Richard Dawkins deceptively uses the narrow beliefs of fundamentalist Christians to color all Christians and the Bible. Christians are not monolithic.
Therefore Jesus is not a moral leader by modern standards.
Do you believe we live in a moral society today? Is the US a moral country? Is punishing a murderer immoral? How do you define moral? Just? Jesus is just, he is moral.
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94
Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option
by cofty init's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.
i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.
it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
Oubliette: That doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't call their beliefs what they are: harmful delusions.
I cannot agree. To be unable to see the unseen does not itself prove that the unseen is a delusion. I recognize the futility of meeting on this subject. I post to hopefully encourage a few Christians who believe in God not to make converts. That's not my job only God can do that. Having said that I do respect all opinions here and appreciate the love of neighbor so evident on this forum. -
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Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option
by cofty init's to their credit that many modern christians prefer the jesus of the gospels to the god of the old testament.. ot god is an embarrassment.
i am not going to list his multitude of moral crimes here but my personal favourite is his brilliant idea that a girl who is raped must marry her rapist.
it's not his biggest crime but it demonstrates a disregard for human feelings that is beyond the comprehension of every moral person.
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
Cofty: The god of the OT was "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".
Jesus prayed to his God and Father. He obeyed him, and taught his followers to do the same. He came to do the will of the god of the OT.All this is true. Jesus loved YHWH, he loved his Father.
It is somewhat hypocritical for men and women who today recognize the necessity of having standing armies ready to defend their nation and do the bidding of their political leaders, and a justice system meting out punishment as deemed warranted by their courts to then find it unconscionable that ancient Israel did the very same.
This is beyond presentism it is nonsensical.
The ancient Jews lived in a world far different from our own. Their laws reflected their time not ours. God dealt with them in their time and not ours. Some day our generation may be condemned for allowing abortions, the wanton killing in war, the trashing of the earth, the excess commercialism and greedy promotion for the best and latest with little regard for future generations and their needs.
But if a future more enlightened generation should cast their critical eye on our times they would be wrong to think that they would have been better than our generation. They hopefully will recognize that what we are is where we are in the advancing of a civilized world. We cannot live outside of our time. Neither could the ancient Jews. Neither did God require it of them because our time was not yet upon the world.
Let's allow reason to have its day.
Frank
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Jehovah kicks a puppy
by Simon intechnically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.
it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?
(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
DJS: So you are telling me that all of the references to Satan, the Lion, the Serpent, etc. used by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and others are all myths and stories?
No, you misunderstood my point. A story which teaches a moral lesson can use historical characters within it even though the actual events in the story are fiction. It is a moral lesson, a teaching lesson. So even though Washington never cut down that cherry tree he himself was a real person, the story on the other hand is not historical.
Satan is real, in the Bible he is real. Did he actually conjure up a talking serpent? No, of course not. Was there actually a flaming sword keeping Adam from re-entering the garden? No, but the picture that flaming sword presents conveys the message very well. And it's the message that counts.
The message in the garden was that to listen to God meant eternal life and not to listen meant being put out of God's garden and eventually losing their life. A simple lesson.
But hey I respect your firm disbelief in the Bible or religion. I have no problem with that. But I do have a small problem with when during an adult discussion someone comes up with an ad hominem attack. I suggest next time you do not base your conclusions solely on a screen name (or when posters happen to join) but instead on their previous posts.
I went down the road of frequent exJW jumps to wrong conclusions with my spouse and would like to leave that terrible experience behind. If you want to know something about me just ask and if it's not too personal I'll answer. I have, though, no obligation to provide answers to someone who does not ask me directly. We all have principles.
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Jehovah kicks a puppy
by Simon intechnically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.
it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?
(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
DJS, when I was a kid (a long time ago) we were taught the "George Washington could not tell a lie" story as history. As an adult I learned that the story of Washington admitting to his father that yes he had chopped down the cherry tree was not historical. But that did not make George Washington, his father, or cherry trees, myths in themselves. The story was a lesson in telling the truth taught to elementary school children. The lesson served its purpose, I remember it well. As an adult I can still appreciate the value of that lesson even though it actually never happened. The Adam and Eve story is for adults not children who take everything they read as literal.
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Jehovah kicks a puppy
by Simon intechnically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.
it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?
(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
As has already been said on this thread the ancient Jews, not being idiots, did not believe the Adam and Eve account was historical or to be taken literally. This is a Christian fundamentalist teaching of relatively recent development.
2000 years ago the Jew Philo referring to the account wrote it was "types shadowing forth some allegorical truth", then he goes on to state his views on the matter.
It is natural for thinking persons to question the historicity of such accounts which are falsely promoted by conservative Christians as being literal. The Bible does not require that we check our brains at the door.
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Article in The Guardian - Faith no more: how the British are losing their religion. Mentions JWs
by AndersonsInfo inhttp://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2015/apr/14/british-christianity-trouble-religion-comeback .
the british have lost faith in religion much faster and more completely than they have lost faith in god.
the most recent survey to show this comes from win/gallup, which found that britain appeared one of the most irreligious countries on earth, with only 30% calling themselves religious.
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
Thanks for this informative article, the Guardian site is a great news source I'm there just about every day.
I do though disagree with the view on the U.S. Constitution which is in my view a primary contributor to democracy through representative government, solid civil rights, as well as disallowing other abuses of the time. If it is revered it is because it is an anchor without which such a varied, continually changing, and vast country might find itself lost at sea. It brings us back to our roots though not often enough.
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Having Faith in the Bible
by william draper ini know many on here have lost faith in the bible , is it possible that is because ones do not have the right perspective regarding it .
we have usually been taught by bad teachers , or ignorant .
i believe if we take an honest look at the bible , we will see that it gives us the best answers to crucial matters , it gives us some amount of bearings ( understanding ) , which without having such knowledge we would all be more like walking zombies in amanner of speaking , we would be lacking hope in something better , for surely something better is to come , how can we be sure , .
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Hold Me-Thrill Me
Folks, where did we get the idea that God should be pushing mankind forward even before their time, before they're ready? In the Hebrew Scriptures God does not bring the Jews into a future time of social development. He guides and works within their time frame.
Jesus said Moses gave in to the hardheartedness of men when he granted divorce. How much harder it would have been if Moses had set out a list of commands that matched the civil rights and social order we have today? It would have been impossible for him to get the Jewish men of his day to follow him, impossible. God provided a framework that fit their level of social maturity. He did not force them beyond what they were able to accept for their time.